Section 6 BioMoo held on the 20 Feb 1998

ClareS turns the ClareS_recorder on.


JohnW says hi to everyone else

ClareS says "Hi everyone, welcome to this meeting on Web Authoring"

ClareS [to Jim Pitts] thanks

Mariza [guest] finds its way in.

JohnW loads up the PPS pages on Netscape

Jim Pitts says "You are very welcome Clare"

ClareS says "You will find the skills covered in this chapter very useful when you come to do your projects"

ClareS says "First I would like to point out that we are not expecting professionally designed pages"

ClareS says "the most important thing we will be looking for is just to see that you can understand and present an aspect of protein structure"

ClareS says "i.e. we're not expecting you to become Java programmers"

ClareS . o O ( you may be relieved to learn )

JohnW smiles

Hnielsen says ":nods"

NickyM says "thank goodness"

BMD says "Are there some samples we can view?"

ClareS says "The next thing I would like to do is introduce today's distinguished guest: John Walshaw"

ClareS says "he wrote a lot of the material which is still in use in the course"

Mikolaj finds his way in.

Mariza [guest] [to Clare] Can we use any of the programs to try to design a protein subject?

Mikolaj says "Hallo everyone"

ClareS is lagging badly (

ClareS [to mariza] I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean

ClareS [to BMD] there will be a few example projects available soon

BMD [to ClareS]

BMD [to ClareS] Thanks

ClareS [to BMD] we will be putting some of the best from last year on the website before very long

ClareS [to JohnW] what tools to you find most use for writing web pages?

ClareS . o O ( I'm just curious... )

Mariza [guest] [to clare] I mean, Can we use any of the animation programs or will you fix one of them?

DavidM finds his way in.

ClareS [to mariza] you can use any programs you like, as long as you know how to use them and they are used to illustrate protein structure ;)

ClareS [to DavidM] Hi, glad you can join us

ClareS [to DavidM] we have been lagging badly (at least I have)

DavidM [to ClareS] Paul Barnes is with me sapling a BioMoo session

JohnW says "To be honest, when I started writing HTML pages (about 3 years ago), I just used an ordinary plain-text editor, as that seemed the only way to do it. When some of the early authoring programs appeared, I tried a few out...."

JohnW says "but they seemed more trouble than they were worth! I'm sure thats not the case with the later versions, but I've still never left my text-editor habits."

ClareS [to JohnW] I often use ordinary plain text editors myself, there's a lot to be said for that approach

JohnW nods

ClareS says "some people even use "vi"""

JohnW says "What I do is use an editor which allows you to program the function keys with 'macros', so that HTML tags appear with a single keystroke."

ClareS says "for those of you who don't know, vi is a very unfriendly text editor for unix"

Hnielsen says " Some people in my group have warmly recommended 'asWedit'"

JudyH says "I tried a sample page using a wizard in Netscape Communicator which looked fine until I tried to alter it,"

JohnW [to clares]

BMD [to JohnW] What, do you reckon, a beginner looks for in an HTML editor?

ClareS says "sometimes I use a mixture of techniques, for instance inserting a table converted straight from Microsoft Word or using a specialist package rather than writing all those table tags out longhand"

ClareS [to hnielson] I don't know that one - who publishes it, and is it free or shareware?

JohnW [to bmd]

Hnielsen [to ClareS] it is free for educational use. See http

JohnW [to BMD]

Mariza [guest] says ", The MS word7.0 and Nestcape composer sometimes need to be fixed using the HTML programs like Hot Dog. "

JohnW  agrees that writing tables in HTML using a plain text editor can be pretty tiresome.

BMD [to ClareS] Who does one get a Word table up? Shouldn't there be a kind of conversion from Word to far as I know only Word 7.0 can do that.

ClareS says "it's certainly true that although you *can* write HTML without knowing it, but you won't be able to appreciate its full power without learning the codes"

Mariza [guest] says "Sometimes the tables from word 7.0 ddo not show well in the internet browsers like"

ClareS [to BMD] in any version of Word before the latest (97) you need Internet Assistant for Word (which is free from the Microsoft site

BMD [to ClareS] I see.

ClareS [to mariza] that's why I just use Word, or something like it, to write the basic codes for me (saves time - I'm lazy ;) and then edit the HTML with a text editor

ClareS doesn't recommend the Microsoft site. It ***crawls***

BMD [to ClareS] What does one mean by 'power' of impression is that HTML is a list of text or image placers and formats....does it actually do something..well..intelligent?

JohnW says "I have to say that I personally wasn't too impressed with Internet Assistant- I found that it was quicker to put the HTML together raw-style with a text editor than learn how to get I.A. to do what I thought it was supposed to do."

Mariza [guest] [to Clare,] I think that is the easy way for the initial steps.

ClareS [to BMD] no, well maybe a better word would have been "versatility"

ClareS says "I find it best to keep a variety of tools available on my desktop - what I use depends on what I'm writing (and even what mood I'm in ;)"

(Agnieszmnap [guest] has disconnected.)

ClareS says "internet assistant has its advantages (e.g. for tables) but I find it a pain to write a whole document in unless it's something I just want to convert from Word directly"

JudyH says "I find that sometimes if I print out a web page it comes out with the HTML codes, and other times they are stripped off, is this a function of the way they were marked up?"

BMD says "So, it seems that the quality of the page one produces depends much more on the content rather than the creating tool."

ClareS [to JudyH] it depends whether you print from Netscape (when you get the document azsmit would appear in the browser window - ie without codes) or whether you print the HTML file as text (when you get the codes)

Patricia finds her way in.

Patricia says "Hello everyone. Just got here from a lecture class."

ClareS [to Patricia] welcome - glad you can make it, we're talking about HTML editors etc

Mariza [guest] [to Clare] Yeemote waves

Mariza [guest] [to Clare] Ooops

Hnielsen says " Another thing: I was not allowed access to the link from the page about images to the University of British Columbia"

Hnielsen says " i.e."

Patricia says "to ClareS Used CoffeCup HTML editor last night and found it easy to use."

JohnW  is trying the URL

ClareS [to whisper] "yes, my mistake, I'll have to edit the tape

BMD [to JohnW] What makes a web page *neat*?

ZLeifer finds his way in.

NickyM says "I have had a similar problem acessing those sites"

Patricia says "say I'm trying to access the site and it won't respond"

ClareS [to BMD] it depends on what you mean - tastes differ

ClareS [to BMD] but one important point to remember is that not everyone has the "best" technology

JohnW [to BMD]

NickyM says "in fact I have had difficulty playing any of the movies in the section 6"

Patricia says "A *neat* site loads quickly"

JohnW  isnt explaining what he means very well..

BMD [to ClareS] I meant appealing to the eye, easy to follow the contents...

ClareS [to BMD] it is important to check your pages in several browsers & make sure that your site is readable the other side of the world, on an old 386 with images off

BMD says "....well, the sort of stuff that makes you want to come back and visit!"

ClareS says "some people use fancy backgrounds which are totally counterproductive, they take ages to load & then make the text almost illegible"

Patricia says "With images off would mean they'd read the ALT messages in the image HTML tag"

Pepi finds his way in.

ClareS says "that's the opposite of a "neat" site, all it shows is I Know How To Use Backgrounds (but not why or when)"

JohnW [to BMD]

ClareS agrees with johnw

ClareS [to Patricia] yes, that's right - which is why you need to use ALT

ClareS [to Pepi] welcome

JohnW [to hnielsen] Yep, looks like that link has 'expired' or at least is no longer public access for some reason.

ClareS [to JohnW] could you remind me of the URL you're looking at? I lost it when it scrolled off screen

Patricia says "to ClareS Good to remind everyone about the ALT tag.....there really are still 386's in use."

ClareS [to Pepi] don't worry about it, the transcript will be available

Hnielsen [to ClareS] it was http

JohnW  is trying some of the movies

ClareS [to Patricia] and people coming in on vt100 terminals

Patricia [to Hnto] ClareS yes, vt100's are useful

ClareS is using tinyfugue with vt100 emulation *now*

Patricia says "say Patricia is using UNIX by way of VMS by way of PC "

Patricia says "to ClareS What is tinyfugue"

Patricia says "?"

JohnW says "I'm looking at that (extremely good) animation of RNA translation by Leos Kral, Univ Georgia... its in two formats, 'Cinemation' for Macs (only?) and Quicktime - so you'll need an appropriate player."

ClareS [to Patricia] it is a MUD client program for Unix (nothing tom do with the web)

NickyM says "That RNA translation is about the only thing I can get to work"

JohnW says "A problem with a lot of these animations is of course that the movie files are so big, so take a long time to load"

Patricia says "[to ClareS]: Oh. PPS told us that MUD has something to d"

JohnW says "-but its often well worth the wait"

Patricia says "to do with MOO!"

NickyM says "When I download movies it says will open with Sparkle fat which can't find"

ClareS [to Patricia] a MOO is actually an Object Oriented version of a MUD (or Multi User Dimension)

NickyM says "sorry 'which I can't find'"

ClareS [to JohnW] yes, that's a serious problem, another is that often you will need a viewer for a particular type of movie

Ruiz says "is it possible to create o MPEG, with RASMOL, on a Mac or PC?"

JohnW [to NickyM] Which computer and browser are you using?

ClareS says "if you use animated GIFs they will be visible (& animated) in all commonly used browsers without needing extra plugins or software"

Hnielsen says " Which program are you supposed to use to view a .mov file under IRIX?"

NickyM says "Powermac 7300 with netscape 3"

ClareS [to Ruiz] I suppose it would be, but only by saving an enormous number of images and creating the movie from the image series

JohnW [to hnielsen] The SGI movieplayer displays .mov files

ClareS [to Ruiz] I've not done it but it sounds complicated & time consuming

Patricia says "What movies are we talking about.....?"

(ZLeifer has disconnected.)

ClareS says "You could write a script in rasmol to create and save the images"

Hnielsen [to JohnW] Yes, thans, now it works. The problem was it doesn't work over an X connection, only on the local host.

ClareS says "which reminds me, there was a message on the rasmol mailing list a few days ago..."

BMD [to ClareS] Is there a tutorial on how to script in Rasmol?

JohnW [to NickyM] Hmm, I thought that Netscape 3 had built in movie players but I may be wrong... does this problem occur with all movies?

ClareS says "... to say that the manual on the Rasmol site in the states has been updated"

JohnW  nods to Hnielsen

ClareS says "you do all know of the Rasmol/Chime web site and mailing list, don't you? "

Patricia says ""NO"

ClareS looks up that site for script-writing tutorials

JohnW [to Ruiz] It can be done (making a movie using Rasmol, I mean an MPEG movie)

BMD [to ClareS] NO

Mariza [guest] [to clare] no

ClareS says ""

ClareS says "that is the Rasmol home page, manual, tutorials, image gallery & lots of good stuff can be found under it"

BMD [to ClareS] Thanks.

ClareS [to JohnW] I looked up Lance Ladic's animations with Yahoo in case they'd moved & after a v-e-r-y-l-o-n-g delay got a Forbidden message

NickyM [to JohnW] no only with those in section 6 but I dont usually download movies

Ruiz says "what are the most important differences abilities between VRML and a software like RASMOL?"

The housekeeper arrives to cart ZLeifer off to bed.

Pepi says " is there free software for creating GIF animations"

ClareS says "there is a lot of information about writing scripts, with tutorials, on"

BMD [to Ruiz] My experience of VRML is that it clogs up all your machine resources to get an image which is often worse than Rasmol's!

JohnW agrees with BMD

ClareS [to Pepi] Yes (but I can't remember the names of any offhand

ClareS hasn't found any real uses for VRML yet either

JohnW says "Again I'm a bit behind the times here - when I started looking at chemical structures with VRML, the results were very unimpressive, and that was with a probably state of the art viewer on an SGI. But there have been big improvements since th


NickyM says "I went to the shareware page in the references of section 6 and got to those pages of lance Ladic only a few days ago so its something recent"

ClareS says "there is a whole Yahoo section on animated GIFs:"

DavidM says " Goodbye everyone, I enjoyed watching your show for a while"

ClareS [to DavidM] goodbye

(DavidM has disconnected.)

Jim Pitts waves

JohnW [to DavidM] bye

JohnW waves

Hnielsen says " I'd like to know one thing before you all leave - what is the 'Self Assessment Fortnight'?"

ClareS says "before we get onto that, another useful url re: animated gifs is - it has direct links to packages for Windows, Unix & Mac & at least some of them are free"

ClareS [to hnielsen] it is the break between semesters - actually 6 weeks long ;)

ClareS [to hnielsen] we will be distributing two types of assessment exercise

ClareS [to hnielsen] 1) multi-choice quizzes, marked automatically

ClareS [to hnielsen] 2) short answer questions, sent out by email

ClareS [to hnielsen] we would like you to return these to your tutor who you will be hearing from very soon

Patricia says "I don't it like an exam?"

ClareS [to Patricia] not really, just little exercises so you can find out how well you are understanding the course material

Patricia says "[to ClareS]: "Oh, OK""

ClareS [to Patricia] they're not assessed, but we will tell you where (if anywhere) you are going wrong

Patricia says "[to ClareS] We'll find out where......"

The housekeeper arrives to cart DavidM off to bed.

ClareS says "I intend to turn the recorder off soon (about 10 minutes) - you're very welcome to stay & chat after that, tho'"

Patricia says "[to ClareS] OK. I just heard something interesting in lecture."

ClareS says "but if anyone has any more questions about HTML, gifs, rasmol, or even self-assessment, now is the time to ask ;)"

Mariza [guest] Smiles abd wave

Patricia says "[to ClareS] about sequence comparisons using RNA from ribosomes"

NickyM says "how do we submit our HTML-laden projects to you"

ClareS [to NickyM] we will tell you more about the projects nearer the time they're due in

ClareS says "you have over 6 months so please don't worry yet"

NickyM [to ClaireS] ok

Mariza [guest] finds its way out.

Patricia says "[to say [to NickyM] I think we'll submit them through email."

ClareS says "yes, you'll need to send your projects by email to one of us at Birkbeck"

ClareS says "so you should make sure you're using an email program which can handle attachments"

Mariza [guest] finds its way in.

NickyM says "large attachments!"

Patricia says "Isn't someone at Birkbeck going to put some info about projects from '97 on web"

Patricia says "this week?"

NickyM says "HTML documents seem to go on for ever and then you haven't even finished page 1"

Patricia says "HTML documents take up a lot of code......applets do to...."

ClareS says "David was going to do that this week. I'll remind him"

Patricia says "[to ClareS] Thanks, Clare."

ClareS says "Well, I'd like to close the formal part of this meeting now. Thanks for contributing to a stimulating discussion"

ClareS turns the ClareS_recorder off.