Section 6 BioMoo held on the 18 Feb 1998

ClareS turns the ClareS_recorder on.

ClareS says "Hi everyone, and welcome to our PPS meeting on web authoring"

(Patricia has disconnected.)

DavidM finds his way in.

ClareS says "We will be discussing section 6 of the course material"

ClareS waves to welcome David

ClareS [to DavidM] we've just started

DavidM says "Hello everybody!"

ClareS says "These are skills which you will all need for your projects at the end of the year"

ClareS says "I must point out before we start that we are *not* expecting you all to become experts in Java, frames etc..."

ClareS says "just to learn enough HTML to put together a small web resource on an aspect of protein structure"

ClareS says "we will be putting some of the best of last year's web projects up on the site so you can see what we expect"

ClareS says "but I am sure that many of you will want to learn more about this subject, because it's very useful and *fun* ;)"

(Patricia has connected.)

NickyM says "I presume that we are expected to write the codes ourselves and not use one of these programmes that do all the hard work - Claris HomePage etc"

ClareS [to NickyM] no... if you have one of those programs, by all means use it - for one thing, we may not even know if you have or not

ClareS [to NickyM] they can be very useful... but you will almost certainly find that youwant to do something that your program doesn't allow...

ClareS [to NickyM] and in that case.. you will need to be able to look at the raw HTML and understand it

BMD says "By 'one of these programmes that do all the hard work', is it meant, any normal HTML editor?"

NickyM says "if you get anything longer than 1 page from me you might guess i'm cheating"

ClareS [to BMD] what do you mean by a "normal HTML editor"? They vary a lot...

ClareS [to EitanR] what do you use to write web pages, I'm curious?

ClareS [to DavidM] and you?

BMD says "Well, something like Netscape 4's own composer"

(DavidM has disconnected.)

NickyM says "I only have something AOL gave me called AOLPress"

ClareS [to BMD] no, I'm really talking about something like Microsoft's Front Page, Claris' Home Page, where all the hard work is done for you

ClareS says "with those programs you don't even have to know the HTML codes"

(DavidM has connected.)

ClareS says "but if you embark on HTML writing without knowing the basic codes, you'll find that you get stuck as soon as you want to do something the developers haven't predicted"

BMD understands.

Patricia agrees

Patrik says "I found the easiest way to learn HTML is just use VIEW SOURCE if you see a nice page."

EitanR goes home.

ClareS [to Patrik] that's a very useful point - you can pick up a lot of useful tips that way

Patricia agrees again

DavidM says "It is good to learn HTMl so that you can understand other people's pages and construct similar pages yourself"

Patrik says "Sorry - afk"

ClareS says "there are a lot of new techniques that can be specifically applied to chemical and molecular structure, such as Chime which is a variant of Rasmol re-written as a netscape plugin"

ClareS [to DavidM] what techniques to you find best for writing HTML? Do you use an editor or write all the codes yourself?

DavidM says "I sometimes write a first draft using MS Word"

BMD [to ClareS] Is Chime freely available?

DavidM says "Then I insert links using HTML code, often using emacs."

DavidM says "I also use Netscape Navigator editor. A real mixture!"

ClareS says "I actually find it best to use a mixture of techniques - sometimes I use a specialised program, or even MS Word, to construct the basic outline, but I always check the HTML at the very least using a straightforward text editor"

ClareS [to BMD] yes, Chime (like rasmol) is free ;)

NickyM says "excuse me but what is an emac"

BMD [to ClareS] From where is Chime commonly available?

DavidM says "Emacs is an editor which is often used under Unix or Linux."

ClareS [to NickyM] emacs is a text editor for unix (over to David form more info)

ClareS . o O ( David got there first )

Patrik says "I am back "

ClareS [to BMD] you can find a link to Chime from the Rasmol home page

Patrik says "You can get chime from"

ClareS [to DavidM] do you know it off hand?

ClareS . o O ( Patrik got there first this time ;) )

BMD is grateful to everyone!

BMD says "I am quite reluctant to use Chime however,"

ClareS says "that link is actually also on the Section 6 references page, I've just checked"

BMD says "if it means that the presentation of your site"

BMD says "would depend on having to wait for a *.pdb file to download."

ClareS [to BMD] if you want to, you can link to the PDB file on your page and also give links to different mirrors so people can get the file from their nearest site

(DavidM has disconnected.)

Patrik says "Is there a version for LINUX available by the way ??"

(DavidM has connected.)

DavidM says "Sorry, my modem crashed again"

ClareS [to Patrik] a version of what for linux?

ClareS [to NickyM] you were talking about AOLpress just now...

Patrik says "of Chime - i could not find one under the URL above."

ClareS [to NickyM] I have just remembered that a program called GNNpress (which I have) is actually a version of AOLpress

ClareS [to Patrik] that is one of the problems with chime...

ClareS [to Patrik] they seem to assume that *everyone* uses Netscape with the PC platform...

Patrik (

ClareS [to Patrik] the Mac version of chime is still buggy (as far as I know) and they have been promising a unix version for some time

NickyM says "How do you use Netscape navigator as an editor"

Patrik says "The SGI-version does not run on linux i suppose."

ClareS [to DavidM] do you know if there is a version for linux yet?

DavidM says "Sorry, a version of what?"

ClareS [to Patrik] the SGI version doesn't run on linux and even this version is about 1 year behind schedule

ClareS [to DavidM] Chime

ClareS [to NickyM] you would need to use the latest version of netscape - netscape 4 (which is actually called Communicator) or else Netscape 3 Gold

DavidM says "I don't know about Chime. What are the advantages over Rasmol?"

ClareS [to NickyM] with Netscape 3 Gold you just load up the browser as per usual and when you load your file you will be asked whether you want to open it in a browser or editor window

ClareS [to NickyM] Netscape 4 (Communicator) is actually a suite of programs - you get the old familiar Navigator and a program called Composer which is a HTML editor

ClareS hopes that's clear enough ;)

NickyM says "Thank you, I only have plain netscape 3 would upgrading be useful"

ClareS [to NickyM] it would be useful for some things but not for others

ClareS [to NickyM] I would certainly recommend upgrading to Gold, you then get the editor facility

NickyM says "Thanks"

ClareS [to NickyM] but some plugins (like Chime, for example ;) either don't work, or work unreliably, with netscape 4

ClareS [to DavidM] chime and rasmol have slightly different uses

NickyM says "This might sound daft but when you are making links, must you link to a prepared page or can you link to blank pages which you fill in later"

ClareS [to DavidM] chime will incorporate the interactive molecular model into the browser window

ClareS [to DavidM] IMHO, only, chime is better for demos (interactive textbooks) and rasmol is better for real modelling (at a very basic level)

ClareS [to NickyM] you *can* link to blank pages - all you'll get when you select one is an error saying the file isn't there

DavidM [to ClareS] THanks for that explanation

ClareS [to NickyM] something I find quite useful is creating a lot of blank documents with the filenames you're going to use and just header & title information

ClareS [to NickyM] it's not essential - very little in HTML authoring is - but it's a good way of keeping track of the structure of your web of pages

NickyM says "Thanks, thats what I was wondering"

DavidM says "I cut and paste URLs into my HTML directly form a browser in another window"

ClareS [to DavidM] good point.. tho' you should remember that you will have to View Source to actually see the explicit links in order to cut-and-paste them

ClareS . o O ( obvious, really... )

NickyM says "is the link the address that comes into the bottom window of the browser"

ClareS says "I must warn you that we have a limit of an hour on midnight BioMOOs: I will be turning the recorder off in 10-15 minutes..."

ClareS [to NickyM] yes - but you can't cut-and-paste from there as the link is only visible when the mouse pointer is over the linked text or image

DavidM says "The link is the address in the HTML file to which you want to go for another page or picture"

DavidM says "It is just a URL"

ClareS says "by the way, the URL needn't start http://; you can have file transfer URLs (ftp://) or mailto URLs (mailto:email@address) where double-clicking will automatically load up your favourite mailer with the email address already included"

DavidM says "Yes, it is imporatant to know that you can view local HTML files with a browser without connecting to any server"

ClareS says "that is very helpful, especially if you are using the net from home and have to pay for phone calls :("

DavidM says "You can edit HTML text locally without an Internet connection"

ClareS . o O ( new mail? at this hour> )

ClareS yawns

DavidM says "Later in the course you will be doing a project which will be mounted on the Internet. You can learn about HTML gradually for that"

ClareS [to DavidM] I've already mentioned that we will be mounting some of last year's best projects so they can see what kind of things we have in mind

DavidM [to ClareS] It is important to look at other people's HTML and mimic it.

ClareS says "are there any last minute questions before I turn the recorder off?"

NickyM says "Thank you just one last question when will you be putting the last years projects on to the site for browsing "

ClareS says "I don't know. David?"

DavidM says "Within the next week"

ClareS says "I do know that it will be a few months before we will even be asking you to choose your projects"

DavidM says "About June we shall ask you to chose a prject from a list"

ClareS says "there should be rather more projects than students ;)"

NickyM says "Is it mostly theoretical, not lab based"

DavidM says "Usually literature based."

ClareS says "the projects are all theoretical - or at least literature-based. You might get to discuss a technique or an experiment"

ClareS says "Well - thanks to everyone for contributing to such a lively discussion at midnight (or later)"

ClareS . o O ( I wonder where all the Americans got to ;) )

ClareS is going to say goodnight to Eitan and then go to bed ;)

DavidM [to ClareS] Good question!

Patrik says "OK, bye then and good night."

NickyM says "thank you again and good night all"

ClareS says "Goodnight everyone, and I hope you all enjoy learning HTML"

ClareS turns the ClareS_recorder off.